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Post by lahistoriadogo on Nov 6, 2008 18:45:22 GMT -5
In an effort to start this place off on the right foot, I am posting a picture for some debate. So lets talk about what is involved in "a nice front"....You will here people say that dogo has a nice front or has a bad front. So when we talk about front end, we talk about chest depth, legs, bone density, shoulders, and paws. SO here is a picture of a front.....Lets talk about it. Lets discuss good traits and bad traits of this "front"
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Post by Elysium on Nov 6, 2008 19:20:57 GMT -5
would like to see a side view of the front angles.
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Nov 6, 2008 19:37:08 GMT -5
Here you go.....
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Post by Elysium on Nov 6, 2008 23:02:20 GMT -5
WELL BALANCED ...AS FAR AS THE STANDARD OF THE MARTINEZ-NOREZ FAMILY I would like to see a little bit more thickness of bone (but that is my own opinion and is not a negative on this dog).
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Nov 7, 2008 12:34:05 GMT -5
She has been given that critique once before. I don't know if I agree or not though. I have always felt that she has just the right amount for her size, but I can see that she could be thicker, as her hieght takes away from her being an impressively thick dog.
What I like most about her front: Her chest comes just past her elbows, not so much further and not where it doesnt reach. Her legs are very parallel to each other. Her breast bone is showing well from the side as well as the front. And I like the way her neck flows into her body.
What I don't like so much: Her shoulders could use a little more definition of muscle. Her paws are not as tight as I would like, but I have just conquered that with some gravel time, and NuVet.
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Post by Elysium on Nov 7, 2008 16:21:09 GMT -5
I can't see her feet but being taller gives the illusion of thin bones. Still pictures do not do that pretty girl justice. She could use more muscle but many of the hunting dogs I have seen were muscular yet thin. She may just need to eat a little more and do some flirt pole and tug toys.
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Post by mistirose on Mar 24, 2009 16:16:17 GMT -5
Ok, if I were evaluating a horse this is what I like about her... from her front angle photo - her legs fall straight from her should she drops straight to the ground and toes neither in nor out. Excellent. Her neck comes out of her shoulders well with a well defined move from shoulder to neck. Very pretty when the judge comes from the side to the front. From the side - this is what I like ... she is deep chested and she does, as stated have a well pronounced "heart girth." (Not sure what you call this in the dog world... but her ribs are well sprung and she does have a chest that is well pronounced and protrudes in front of where her legs naturally fall from her body.) In this photo it does look like her left elbow is slightly turned out a little bit. Could just be me ... not the photo though because I'm new at this! I think she has a stunning neck! In the horse world, the body being perfect, I required a stunning head and neck on my horses. I love her neck. I also think she has a lovely muzzle. Her nose appears to be flat, she has a nice stop, and her lips also appear to meet the standard and would not fall below her bottom lip when her mouth was closed. She also looks as though she has the necessary number of teeth on the bottom (something my rescue dog does not). Her angulation in the rear also looks correct. Is this right? No one commented on it so I'm curious to know if this is correct or not. As far as her bone goes, it seems to me to be proportionate to her rib depth, hip size, etc. Perhaps she could be a bit bigger through the ankle and joints on the side view but from the front view I think she looks very proportional. The thing that I would fault her on is her topline. From the point just behind her shoulders to the top of her hips she looks as though she falls away or dips down. I realize she's slim and not packing any extra fat, which would smooth her out over the topline, but I am wondering if her topline is the standard or if this is an area that she could be improved upon? Again, I grovel in advance if I offend anyone. I'm begging for the opportunity to learn from everyone and I only ask because I truly want to learn and develop my eye ... which I promise will come. This is how I learned to rip halter horses apart. By ripping them apart it is how I learned to breed Superior and World Champions. Thank you so much for this opportunity! Best wishes, Misti
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Mar 24, 2009 18:56:03 GMT -5
Misti,
I am the breeder and owner of this dogo, and I am not offended so I am sure no one else is. I posted these pictures specifically for us to evaluate and discuss structure. Unfortunately we dont get too much traffic here. But as for your eval. I think much of it is dead on. Her topline is my biggest pet peeve about her. She is actually incomplete in her teeth missing a P4 i think it is. You can see it if you look really close at the profile shot.
As for some of your questions....Her topline is not standard. It is slightly incorrect, though it has improved as she has bulked up a little, still not what I want. Her angulation both front and rear are, in my opinion, very accurate to the standard. In the profile picture, it does appear as her elbow is turned out, but it is more that she is just not fully filled in in the chest. She is young, in those photos only 16-17 months.
To be honest with you, I feel as if your "general knowledge" of 4 legged animal structure, puts you far ahead of many judges. If you just go by your knowledge when you are looking at the dogo, you will be looking in the right direction.
I will post more picture here for you to evaluate, and I will give you my opinion on the dog from a breeder perspective. Hopefully that will educate you more on the breed specifically. If you have specific requests for angle shots let me know, I have about 10,000 pictures of my dogs on the computer. So if it will help I will post them for you. I will start a new topic for the next evaluation for you.
Thanks, Josh
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joe
Just a Puppy
Posts: 37
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Post by joe on Jan 27, 2010 20:57:03 GMT -5
I really like this female Josh! One of my favorites. For me, that is the perfect amount of bone. I like her shorter back too.
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Jan 27, 2010 23:30:04 GMT -5
Thank you Joe. I like her too, lol.
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Post by olydogo on Jan 28, 2010 7:59:03 GMT -5
BONES--- and their proper placement is EVERYTHING, like a building--- if its STRUCTURE and foundations are SOLID and well placed it will not crumble easily, IF the structure is weak it will fall apart--- based on that thought I want to see CORRECT ANGULATIONS FOR A WORKING DOG (front and or rear)--- The importance of properly angulated shoulders is reflected in the dog's gait. The proper construction of the shoulder can best be described as when a line drawn through the shoulder blade at an angle of 45 degrees, would meet a line drawn through the length of the upper arm at an angle of 90 degrees. The length of the shoulder blade and of the upper arm should be equal. Correct distinct withers are those with a small space between the tops of the shoulder blades. The height from the elbows to the withers should be approximately equal to the height from the ground to the elbows. When the dog is in normal stance and when he is gaiting, the elbows should lie close to the brisket. From a frontal view, the forelegs should be parallel to each other, the feet toeing neither in nor out, but pointing directly forward. The front legs should be perpendicular to the ground when viewed either from the front or the side. When the dog toes out below the pastern the fault is called "French front" and that same terminology can be used for the fault in which the entire leg below the elbow turns outward. The most extreme example is when the elbows themselves turn out. It is absolute malformation of front, but it is not uncommon. All of these problems of faulty fronts, from the slightest to the most extreme are detrimental to sound locomotion. I am a stickler when it comes to front and rear angulations more so then about anything else (except hunting drive and head of course, in that order). SO I focus more so on the angles from scapula (shoulder), Humerus (upper arm), elbow, arm and hands. UNLESS you have x-ray vision one cannot possibly know if these angles are correct--- the only way one could cone close to telling with out making X-rays is by movement/gate (particularly with fronts), SLOW and FAST movement (reason I do not like pictures anymore and do not say good or bad when it comes to fronts). I LOVE it when a judge makes you WALK your dog around the ring--- then he makes you trot and then as fast as you can--- I KNOW WHAT HE IS LOOKING FOR THEN. Working dog needs a well-angled shoulder/upper arm assembly a “straight” (more vertical) fore-assembly is somewhat like a car without springs. A dog with better angles (yet strong ligaments in pasterns, elbows, and shoulders) can spread that shock over an imperceptibly longer period of time, during which the muscles slow the impact while the bones go through their “folding up” action relative to each other, then release that stored energy by straightening out again (bouncing back). Trotting creates very nearly the same sort of shock that jumping does, only far less violent. UNDERSTANDING that the DOGO ARGENTINO was not only created to CATCH BOARS but created for LONG hunts where the human hunter would be on horse back for days and the dog was to follow on a trot until the quarry was located makes all this very clear--- the Dogo Argentino with proper angulations could go for days on a trot with minimal wear and tear leaving enough for a good battle with a boar. MOVEMENT is detrimental to accurately asses if a dog or horse for that fact is put together appropriately. THOUGHTS??? SORRY SO WINDED.
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Jan 28, 2010 10:14:21 GMT -5
So what are your thoughts on Lita?
Interesting read by the way. Nice mini article on angulation!
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Post by olydogo on Jan 28, 2010 10:39:12 GMT -5
LOL, Chest is deep and passes below the elbows appropriately--- looking at her from the front it seems that she is correctly straight--- the wide collar throws off the length of the neck by the way.
Thats about all I can tell with out seeing her ("book it") MOVE.
O
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Post by lahistoriadogo on Jan 28, 2010 11:45:23 GMT -5
I'll try and get video soon
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Post by olydogo on Jan 28, 2010 12:06:33 GMT -5
I READ MY POST AGAIN------ I HOPE I didn't come off as a know everything on that post or abrasive to your question Josh--- YOU know me by now and probably new in what tone I was talking--- but others may get it wrong--- its just a topic of great interest to me and I have done a lot of research on this one as well as a few other subjects---
I do apologize if the tone came off wrong.
O
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